Friday, November 6, 2009

Myth #4: Sex is Licit for Post-Menopausal Women Only if They Are Open to the Possibility That Pregnancy Might Occur

The idea of grandma and grandpa having sex in nursing homes gets a reaction of ugh! from many people, yet it is precisely this vision of sex in old age that the above myth seeks to control.  I have found that among the sex for procreation only crowd that some believe that sex should stop once a woman is beyond childbearing years.  Others believe that sex in the post menopausal years is good, only if the couple is open to the idea that God might work a miracle to cause pregnancy.  We can see from this myth how people have taken what God has not forbidden and made a prohibition out of it.  Then, in order to wiggle themselves out of the trap and snare they have created for themselves, they come up with this "open to life" option which in their minds make sex in the postmenopausal years licit.  When I read and hear these wranglings, I just quietly laugh within myself, because nothing in scripture stops post menopausal women from engaging in sex - nothing!

Elizabeth and Zacharias, the parents of John the Baptist, were having sex in their old age, well past menopause, without giving any thought to the possibility that Elizabeth could get pregnant.  I know this is so because the Bible says that Elizabeth was barren, and they were both very old.  

"And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.  And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years (Luke 1:6-7)."

God wanted to bless their sexual union with a son, and so God sent the angel Gabriel with the message that Elizabeth would become pregnant.  Zecharias totally disbelieved Gabriel because both he and his wife were well past childbearing age.  We read, "And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years (Luke 1:18).  Because of his disbelief, Zecharias was struck dumb by God.  It says here:

"And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.  And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season" (Luke 1:19-20).


Was Zecharias commiting a sin when he had sex with his wife even though he did not believe she could get pregnant?  Absolutely not!  God blessed their union, even though Zecharias was not "open to life" during sex. 

Look, unless God personally tells you Himself that you will get pregnant in your post-menopausal years, don't even try to waste time worrying whether or not you have committed a sin by engaging in sex with your spouse without being "open to life."  People who preach this "open to life' doctrine are only fooling themselves, because according to the laws of nature, it is impossible for a post menopausal woman to get pregnant without miraculous, divine intervention.  To which of us millions/billions of women did God promise children in old age?  Was He not the one who created the laws of nature to stop childbearing in the post menopausal years?  From what I understand in the Bible, God does not just perform a miracle for the sake of performing miracles, in order to please our whims and fancies.  He always perform a miracle for a divine purpose, and in the case of Elizabeth and Zecharias, it was to make them the parents of the forerunner of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. 

Let me conclude by saying that we do not have to worry at all if grandma  and grandpa are still enjoying sex.  As long as they are physically able, and are healthy enough to enjoy it, then they should go right ahead!  God's word gives them permission.

23 comments:

Daughter of Wisdom said...

It was not like Zecharias heard the angel and then started to have sex with his wife from then on. They had an active sex life, and God chose to bless that sex life with a child, but Zecharias had long ago given up on the possibility of ever having a child.

It is funny how God went to Zecharias instead of Elizabeth. From the Biblical account, Elizabeth knew nothing of what was said to Zecharias because Zecharias was struck dumb. So it was a surprise, when she found herself pregnant (Luke 1:24).

Elena said...

Elizabeth and Zacharias, the parents of John the Baptist, were having sex in their old age, well past menopause, without giving any thought to the possibility that Elizabeth could get pregnant. I know this is so because the Bible says that Elizabeth was barren, and they were both very old.

All you really know was that Elizabeth and Zacharias wee old and past menopause. Whether they still thought, hoped, dreamed about a baby or what could have been you simply have no idea.

I didn't know that sola scriptura Christians were allowed to take some liberties with the text!

Was Zecharias commiting a sin when he had sex with his wife even though he did not believe she could get pregnant? Absolutely not! God blessed their union, even though Zecharias was not "open to life" during sex.

There is a difference between not believing pregnancy is possible and not being "open to life." I think you play with words a lot.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Elena wrote:

"Whether they still thought, hoped, dreamed about a baby or what could have been you simply have no idea."
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I do, because Gabriel said:

And behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day these things shall be performed, BECAUSE THOU BELIEVEST NOT MY WORDS, WHICH SHALL BE FULFILLED IN THEIR SEASON." (Luke 1:20).

Zecharias was struck dumb because he did not believe Gabriel that his wife could get pregnant.

Elena said...

Which is not exactly the same thing as not being open to new life. You're simply drawing conclusions that aren't there.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Prove it!

Elena said...

Prove what? Just about everything you've written is an extrapolation from the actual scriptural text.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Where is the extrapolation? It says there plainly in the scriptures that Zacharias and Elizabeth had no children because (1) Elizabeth was barren and (2) They were both well stricken in years (See Luke 1:7).

Where is the problem? Is it because I said they were sexually active? Zecharias certainly did not scoff at the idea of being sexually active in his old age, he only expressed doubts at the idea of them getting pregnant.

Zechariah said to the angel, “How can I be sure this will happen? I’m an old man now, and my wife is also well along in years.” (Luke 1:18, NLT).

In contrast, Sarah scoffed at the idea of sex in her old age when she was past childbearing age.

Genesis 18:11-14:

"11 Abraham and Sarah were both very old by this time, and Sarah was long past the age of having children. 12 So she laughed silently to herself and said, “How could a worn-out woman like me enjoy such pleasure, especially when my master—my husband—is also so old?”
13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh? Why did she say, ‘Can an old woman like me have a baby?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”

This is God reviving a sex life that had died probably around the time of menopause (Remember Sarah had also given up on bearing children when she allowed Abraham to sleep with Hagar for them to have a son). It's amazing how God waited until after menopause to give Sarah a child when He could had done it before that time, although she was barren, even before menopause.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

I love the story of Elizabeth and Zecharias because only Zecharias had received word from God that they would have a son. Elizabeth was not told anything by God, yet she willingly engaged in sex with her husband in her old age. God eventually blessed that union with a son, John the Baptist.

"And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men" (Luke 1:24-25).


We see Elizabeth hiding herself for five months, clearly much taken aback and in awe of the wonderful, awesome and graciousness of God for giving her a child, even in her old age.

In contrast, both Abraham and Sarah were told that they would have a son. Sarah had prior knowledge of this, and thus was severely dissapointed when after 10 years of trying, she was unable to conceive. She then relented and gave Abraham to Hagar in order for them to have a child. Abraham was eighty-six years old when Ishmael was born. This however was not God's plan in perpetuating the holy seed, and it was not until some thirteen years later, when Abraham was ninety-nine years old, and Sarah ninety that God appeared to both of them and reaffirmed His promise to them that they would both have a son together. By then they were both well advanced in years and Sarah was beyond childbearing years, and both laughed at the prospect of having a child at their great ages, but God's will prevailed and Isaac was born when Abraham was one hundred years old.

Oh the awesomeness of God, who stretched out the sex life of Abraham and Sarah well into their old age. Not only that, but after Sarah died, Abraham remarried and had six sons by Keturah, his new wife. Abraham's desire for sex certainly did not stop with the birth of Isaac and the death of Sarah, but continued well into and much further into his old age. The six children by Keturah is evidence of that.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Some people are probably wondering where I get these teachings from. The teachings I present however, are directly out of scripture, with special illumination and enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. That which is revealed to me through God's Spirit in His word, I write. If anyone has a problem with anything I write, please feel free to contest it, becaue truth will stand, regardless of opposition. If it be of God, it will stand, but if it is not of God, it will fall. Incidentally, I have not seen anything that I have written fallen yet. On the contrary, all that I have written have been confirmed by actual evidences in real life.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Here is the Biblical testimony concerning the faith of Sarah.

Hebrews 11:11-12, NLT

"11 It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise. 12 And so a whole nation came from this one man who was as good as dead—a nation with so many people that, like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them."

At the age of 90, after God reaffirmed His promise to them, Sarah believed that she would bear a child. And so in faith, Sarah and Abraham engaged in sex with the full assurance that conception would occur. It took a lot of faith, because all the odds were against them, but they believed God's word, and acted upon that word in faith. God had promised them a child, and they believed. God revived their sex life and their reproductive organs, so that they could have a child.

Prior to that, they had sex, but nothing happened because God had not revived Sarah's womb,and yet God allowed them to enjoy sexual pleasure.

Do we see anywhere where God told Sarah and Abraham to stop having sex because the time had not come for them to conceive? No! Did God say to Abraham and Sarah "Now that you have borne the holy seed, Isaac, there is no more need for you have sex"? No!

Let us not prohibit what God allows.

Elena said...

Here are your extrapolations on scripture from my perspective.


Elizabeth and Zacharias, the parents of John the Baptist, were having sex in their old age, well past menopause, without giving any thought to the possibility that Elizabeth could get pregnant.

You don't really have any idea at all what was going on in Elizabeth's mind. And Zacharias just doubted what the angel told him. Other than that you don't know what thought was or wasn't in his mind ever.

You also don't know anything about their sex life and how active it was or wasn't. The scripture doesn't say and you can't possibly know.


I'm not sure what the rest of your comments are supposed to mean - that older people can have sex? Do you know anyone who objects to that? And FYI, the Catholic Church doesn't teach that old people can't have sex either.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

And who said anything about the Catholic church?

Daughter of Wisdom said...

BTW, isn't sex in old age unitive without procreation? Sex for pleasure only. :-)

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Elena wrote:

"You also don't know anything about their sex life and how active it was or wasn't. The scripture doesn't say and you can't possibly know."
-----------------------------------

I know what I know because God has revealed it to me. Just as how He revealed to me the economic collapse over one year before it happened, and the passing of the health care bill which happened last night. He had also given a call to healthy living, and following a Biblical diet several years before this swine flu outbreak, and He is now calling His people into making their marriages spiritual experiences.

As a prophet, I do not expect everyone to believe everything I say, but it is my duty to warn and inform. Who has ears to hear, let them hear.

Blessings.

Elena said...

BTW, isn't sex in old age unitive without procreation?

Sex after menopause doesn't purposefully divide unity from procreation. That's where the sin lies in the mind of the church - the deliberate intentional division. Anything that works the way God designed it to work is licit.

Elena said...

I know what I know because God has revealed it to me.

insert eyeroll here - excuse me if I don't take your private revelations as authoritative. An frankly most serious apologists and scripture experts wouldn't either.

Elena said...

Just as how He revealed to me the economic collapse over one year before it happened, and the passing of the health care bill which happened last night.

Hillary, lots of economists and political observers were predicting the burst of the housing bubble and the economy folding like a house of cards. Ditto it wasn't that huge of a leap to to figure that health care was going to be pushed big time if Obama won the election.

I will say though that this discussion has been enlightening on a lot of levels.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Elena wrote:

"insert eyeroll here - excuse me if I don't take your private revelations as authoritative. An frankly most serious apologists and scripture experts wouldn't either. "
---------------------------------

And that's fine by me. I am not here to convince you or anyone else who do not believe.

FYI: My revelations on Biblical economics are now being widely preached in mainstream Christian circles. Crown financial ministries www.crown.org and other ministries are now preaching a debt relief program that I first advocated.
My book has been fully endorsed by many pastors as sound doctrine, and many have written back to me words of appreciation for what they can now share with their congregations.

I was one of the first ones to predict the win of President Obama in spite of hot opposition, and also predict the coming health care reform. I also predict seven years of economic prosperity following this collapse. I try not to do too much of this on my blog because I do not want my blog to become a political forum, but reality is reality, and facts are facts, regardless of political affliation.

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Elena wrote:

"Sex after menopause doesn't purposefully divide unity from procreation. That's where the sin lies in the mind of the church - the deliberate intentional division. Anything that works the way God designed it to work is licit."
-----------------------------------

Well, since sex after menopause, by nature, does not produce children, then it is for pleasure. So why all this talk about "open to new life" etc.? Why keep using Sarah as an example of someone who got pregnant in old age to justify sex after menopause? Why all this arguing that sex is for both pleasure and procreation combined? Why all this talk about desiring sex with one's spouse for sex only is lust? Apparently then, what I said in my previous post about sex for pleasure only, being pleasing to God, was not wrong. You even brought on Just Evelyn to 'teach' me about sex. How funny, that people who believe in singleness, should think they can teach others about marriage.

Why do you guys try to make a church doctrine out of every thing, and make everything so complex, when God has determined in His word the nature of all things? No. I see here a spirit of not accepting God at His word, but trying to superimpose man-made doctrines upon the word of God, to suit church teachings. When the procreation only crowd are faced with the unreasonableness of their own position, they make up doctrines to circumvent their own doctrines and to justify themselves, when they could have saved themselves a whole lot of trouble by just adhering to the word of God.

Praise be to God! His word prevails!

Peace.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

So here it is folks:

Bring your sex lives under the authority of God OR bring your sex lives under the authority of your church. Which will it be? As you can see, what God teaches and what man teaches is not always the same.

Give me God in my bedroom anytime. He is the Creator of sex, and the Teacher of sex. He will teach you everything you need to know, and you will enjoy it, and have absolutely no guilt.

Elena said...

I am not here to convince you or anyone else who do not believe.

Just to be clear,
I believe in God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and everything in the Nicene creed.

It's you I have doubts about.

Elena said...

Well, since sex after menopause, by nature, does not produce children, then it is for pleasure. So why all this talk about "open to new life" etc.?

Sex after menopause was designed by God to be infertile. The couple didn't plan or design it that way. And there is no harm in enjoying God's plan for marriage even if it physically cannot be fruitful.

Nonetheless, as you have pointed out with Sarah and Elizabeth, sometimes God has plans for us that are unforseen and unexpected. We continue in faith and generosity in our old age in whatever way God calls us.

And on a personal note, i see a lot of selfishness in senior citizens today and I see that selfishness promoted in the culture. And I think whenever pleasure is pushed over purpose without a balance in the middle, it can be a gateway for selfishness and sin.


Apparently then, what I said in my previous post about sex for pleasure only, being pleasing to God, was not wrong.

It can be and it most certainly is for contracepting couples.


You even brought on Just Evelyn to 'teach' me about sex.

I don't even know Evelyn, but I did post a link to this blog one week on Sunday Snippets - most bloggers LIKE to get new readers.


How funny, that people who believe in singleness, should think they can teach others about marriage.

Huh? I've been married 30 years. I think I know a thing or two about marriage.


Why do you guys try to make a church doctrine out of every thing, and make everything so complex, when God has determined in His word the nature of all things?

Once again Hillary, you betray your ignorance of Catholicism - which makes me wonder why you keep coming over to VTC in the first place. It also makes me wonder what else you're not doing your homework on and further undermines your as an authority figure.

Daughter of Wisdom said...

Thanks for your input.